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It’s easy to criticize the Flyers’ move to acquire top five NHL defenseman Chris Pronger. He has one year left on his contract at $6.25m in cap hit, he has a wife that wants to stay in California, he is known for his frequent trips to the penalty box, he cost the Flyers quite a bit in future considerations, and he’ll be turning 35 right at the beginning of the 2009-10 season. After all of this is Chris Pronger still worth it to the orange and black? GM Paul Holmgren seems to think so.
Since the Flyers’ first round exit to the Pittsburgh Penguins it was clear that the team needed a hammer on the back end. Timonen, Coburn, Parent, Carle, Alberts, and Jones were just not mean enough to fight back against the physical forechecking of Kunitz and Jordan Staal. It wasn’t so much that the Flyers were outplayed as even TSN is willing to admit that the Flyers controlled much of that series, but it had much more to do with the Flyers’ defenders unwilling to stand up for each other while the more physical players on Pittsburgh’s roster took runs at them.
Having players like Carcillo and Hartnell in the lineup wasn’t nearly enough when any motion for retaliation was met hard by punishment. Now with Pronger on the blueline and Ray Emery in net the Flyers can argue one of the scariest foursomes in the NHL including Pronger, Carcillo, Emery, and Hartnell, not to mention the defensive unit that went from mediocre to world class because of one move.
It cost the Flyers 25 goal, 50 point forward Joffrey Lupul, young defensive sensation Luca Sbisa, two first rounders including this year and next, a conditional 3rd should Pronger re-sign with the Flyers, and an extra $2m in cap space total, but Holmgren thinks it was worth it. Pronger happens to have a Norris Trophy, a Hart Trophy, and an all important Stanley Cup victory to his name.
Those that think he’s getting old clearly haven’t noticed him leading all NHL defensemen in playoff points since the lockout. With the league leader in playoff goals since the lockout, Danny Briere, already a fixture with the orange and black the team is even more deadly when the competition starts to heat up. Also easy to forget about Pronger is his regular season production. With the exemption of one year suffering from injuries back in 2002-03 he has spent over a decade racking up 40+ point performances. He has of course done all of this while remaining a defensive stalwart with an attitude logging big minutes every night.
If there was ever a question that Pronger is no longer a top five NHL defenseman let any such argument be dropped immediately.
The question is not so much whether Pronger came at fair value or whether he will be a serviceable asset to the Flyers going forward. If you want to read more on what he brings to the organization, you can do so here. It includes Holmgren’s thoughts and Pronger’s reactions to being traded to Philadelphia. Still that is not the most pressing issue.
The bigger question of course is how he helps the Flyers compete for a Stanley Cup. As mentioned in the linked article above, he immediately brings a physical edge to the Flyers turning their blueline into arguably the best unit in the Eastern Conference. When asked how he would fit in with the city of Philadelphia he immediately mentioned his ultimate goal: another Stanley Cup.
To get Lord Stanley from the east though it is a totally different ball game. There are more superstars in the Eastern Conference with Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington, New Jersey, and others all keeping deadly offensive units in tact this offseason. A top four of Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, and Parent immediately rectifies any issues involving other teams’ offenses. Physicality is met with skill and even more physicality. Any skill players can be shut down. The unit Philadelphia has set up is already Stanley Cup caliber to add to their Stanley Cup caliber offense consisting of Richards, Gagne, Carter, Briere, Giroux, and Hartnell.
The only thing that remains is the Stanley Cup to go along with such a talented lineup.
It’s now up to Pittsburgh, the defending champion, as well as other eastern powerhouses to compete. While they draft more future players the Flyers already have their prospect pool ready for the next five years. The orange and black have drafted well. Now it’s time for them to use some of that talent on players like Pronger.
Right now the road to Lord Stanley in the East goes through Philadelphia. They have made the first major move to show they’re interested in winning now and in the future. It’s everyone else’s turn to play keep up.
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The Flyers have essentially sold a decent portion of their future for a chance to win the Cup in 2010.
It’s a gamble.
Since the Flyers have been eliminated from the last two playoffs by the Penguins, who are in fact the defending Stanley Cup champions, it might be a little more realistic to say that the road to Lord Stanley in the East goes through Pittsburgh.
This trade will FAIL, and will be the undoing of Holgrem. Way too much was given up for a 35 year old defensemen who spends too much time in the penalty box.
Saying the Cup goes through a team eliminated in the 1st round, regardless of who they add, is the poorest form of journalism. You should be ashamed.
Andy ?! poor journalism? I must say that your comment is difficult to understand. Chris is exactly accurate to state that any eastern contender will have to get through an improved Philly team in order to challenge for the cup. This is what Pittsburgh had to do this year and with Pronger added, it will be tougher next year.
Ashamed…honestly – not a brilliant remark, it was a well written piece.
I think the Flyers gave up a lot but maybe a bold move was needed, time will tell.
To all of you who said that the Flyers sold the farm, let me ask you just how much of the farm we sold.
Within the prospect pool (according to HockeysFuture.com) the Flyers currently have defensemen Ryan Parent, Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, Denis Bodrov, and Michael Ratchuk. At the same time the Flyers have forwards Claude Giroux, James van Riemsdyk, Andreas Nodl, and Patrick Maroon. Most teams would KILL to have the prospect depth that we have. Why not take a little of the future and move it in order to win?
Pronger became vastly underrated as a defenseman the moment he was traded to the Flyers, and it really is a shame that some people can’t see that.
As far as Sbisa is concerned he was a definite blow to the organization. It seemed as though that Holmgren rushed him though. He had his time with the Flyers main team and played very well, but prospects are fickle things. There were certainly questions about him by the time he was sent back to the WHL mid-season and even after he came back up for the playoffs.
I like Sbisa, but the Flyers didn’t exactly give up the entire world to acquire a top 5 NHL defenseman.
Chris – it’s just a general consensus that draft choices are hard to come by and even down in the 200s future Hall of Famers can lurk, you just never really know what you might be giving up.
Also the Stanley Cup would have to go through Pittsburgh in the East if TSN and the NHL hadn’t already admitted that the Flyers outplayed the Penguins for the majority of the first round. Everyone knows what happened. To pretend as though the Penguins were the best team in the NHL (besides winning the Stanley Cup) is just a dream. You don’t have to be the best team to win, you just have to be good.
Flyers just got better at a position they desperately needed, and unless the Penguins do something about the $6.5m in raises to Staal and Malkin they need to figure out a way to pay for top 6 wingers. Flyers solved their problems, and now I’d like to see if Pittsburgh can do the same.
Bruce:
I know what you mean. You don’t ever know who will pan out, and who won’t. There certainly is an art to the educated guess, but the point is the Flyers have set themselves up to the point where they can afford to trade some of the farm for a chance to win in the not to distant future. Even without Sbisa and the 1st round picks the pool is deep for the Flyers.
I wish the price for Pronger didn’t include 3 first round picks in 3 consecutive years, but sometimes you have to give to get.
I sometimes find people (myself included) often overrate draft picks.
The best defensive unit in the eastern conference cmon….that’s four guys and to be honest Coburn and Parent are nothing special…and you seriously think that’s better than defenses like Boston, New Jersey, or Pittsburgh? Pronger isn’t an all around defenseman and Timmonen isn’t a better all around defenseman than Chara, Gonchar, Green.
As for Pronger, there are some pros and cons. As you have already listed the pros, the disadvantages will be that he isn’t the fastest or quickest guy in the world and he can easily be turned inside out with speed. He’s also got some serious discipline problems and has a short temper.
Last. just getting Pronger doesn’t classify the flyers as best in the east. Sounds like an awful lot of optimism coming out of this post and they didn’t get drastically better with this trade, they’re not above teams like Boston, Washington, NJ, and Pitt. As i watched your team go up against the penguins, it showed that their superstars could walk all over your defense and pronger won’t help slow them down the whole time. And other stars in the east for that matter.
I’m sorry, did you just say Mike Green was an all-around defenseman? Washington has some SERIOUS defensive issues. A lot of them have to do with Mike Green’s inability to focus on defense for more than a split second. The rest of the depth is terrible as well. Hopefully soon Alzner will be a stud for them so they can finally have some reasonable defensive depth.
As for New Jersey, Paul Martin is severely underrated as a defensive defenseman, but there’s a reason why everyone who discusses Devils hockey only talks about two things: Lamoriello’s System or Brodeur. Whichever it is, it isn’t the defense.
Pittsburgh defense is not exactly spectacular. Gonchar is good, but he is Timonen with a little more offensive ability and a little less defensive ability. That is all Gonchar is. If you want to rank him ahead of Timonen be my guest, but the truth is he’s really not that far away.
Chara was the best defenseman in the East, but now it’s very arguable that Pronger is. You could make cases as to why both are up there. Right now Pronger is a top five NHL defenseman and Timonen is somewhere in the range of 8 to 14. No one else in the East has a top combo of top 10-15 defensemen. On top of that Parent is a young and very underrated defensive defenseman. He may not have a mean streak, but he’s certainly not bad. Coburn would have every team in the NHL going after him should the Flyers ever try to move him since he’s apparently “so terrible”. He’s one of the best young number 2 defenseman, and will likely be a solid number one some day. Defensemen take a long time to develop into studs.
You really should go back and look at your facts. As for the Pens “superstars” walking all over the Flyers, how about the Flyers walking all over the Pens’ team. The Pens were outplayed. The NHL said it, TSN said it, you’re the last to get with the program. That’s what made their story so incredible. Fleury shined, and honestly if you think Green is a better all around defenseman than Timonen you need to get something checked out. Green is by no stretch of the imagination an all-around defenseman. Really neither is Gonchar for that matter, but he’s much better defensively than Green.
Shoot – as much as this bugs me (as I’m no Flyers fan) I have to agree with Chris on his defensive assessments. Though their is an omission. Speaking of a defensive corps as the top 4, I’d put Montreal’s Komi,Markov, Boullion & Hammer as good or better than any in the east.
Green is not a complete defenseman, even Pittsburgh’s defense is not that strong. This is why I was rather surprised to see Hedman go second. Top d-men are hard to find and Philly seriously improved themselves with this trade. We were talking about this at the Draft last night. If Philly could only get a decent goalie they would be the team to watch next season. I think Emery will have an Avery effect, big distraction with only minimal added talent.
I agree that you can put Montreal’s defense up there. The reason MTL was originally omitted I assume was because of Zach’s lack of knowledge pertaining to teams who were not on the top of the league last year. The Habs struggled with injuries all season, but now get to reap the benefits of more cap space than should ever be allowed on July 1st. Komi and Boullion are both UFAs as well as Brisebios, Schneider, and Dandenault. If the Habs can get some pieces in there, I’m thinking Bouchemin and Komi re-signed, they have a serious argument for best defensive core.
I still have to hand it to the Flyers with two number one guys, a number 2 guy in Coburn, and an underrated young defensive guy in Parent, but it’s a lot closer than someone who didn’t know much about hockey outside of strong offensive teams would suggest.
The problem remains Philadelphia’s goaltending, but if the Emery gamble pays off then they’re scary good. If not Emery gets benched and they put whoever the back up is, in as a starter. As someone who believes in the philosophy of building the team defense before goaltending I like what the Flyers have done. The relationship between goaltending and defense is certainly give and take, and I think building a stout defense helps out goaltenders. For example look at what happened to Price when the team in front of him fell apart. It’s not all about sophomore slumps.
I think skill wise at worst Emery is a lateral move to Biron. We will have to see what happens.
Here’s hoping this move isn’t just Derian Hatcher Part 2
Not really sure what’s to criticize here. Sure, Pronger’s not getting any younger, but the move makes sense. He’ll be an instant fan favorite in Philly with the edge he plays with, and makes massive contributions at both ends of the rink. As for the asking price, I believe the old saying goes, “If you want to make an omelet, you’ve gotta crack some eggs.” The Flyers were shopping around Lupul at the trade deadline, so it’s not too much of a surprise he’s the odd man out of Philly (oddly enough, this is the second time Lupul’s been involved in a deal for Pronger, plus he’s now back with his original team in Anaheim….hmmm). And as you’ve already outlined, Chris, the Flyers have the organizational depth to overcome the losses of Sbisa and Lupul. At some point, you’ve got to get the youngsters in the AHL a chance or they’ll leave the organization.
Philly’s gonna tough to beat next year, but I won’t hand them the Cup just yet. The toughest task will be making this all fit under the salary cap (read: expect more moves to be made), and the biggest question mark will still be in net. Adding the egos of Emery and Pronger will make Mike Richards’ job as captain unenviable, but the Flyers will be a force if they can escape the drama that dogged Emery in Ottawa and Pronger in Edmonton.
[...] a cream-of-the-crop blueliner and former league MVP will go a long way. (More on Pronger trade: TheHockeyWriters.com; [...]